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OAC Moderator
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6751
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Posted: 11/25/2003 03:45 pm
"do you guys think google will rectify this situation" If you mean change back or substantially change the filter/algorithm, then no. Adapt or die. However, there are some poor results out there and the Google engineers will be working on some adjustments to try and fix them. I would be concentrating on ranking well for lots of niche phrases - ones with three to five words (excluding stop words). Go back and check your old log files for phrases that you have previously ignored because those phrases weren't used as often as your main ones. |
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philh Joined: Sep 14, 2001
# Posts: 3050
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Posted: 11/25/2003 03:50 pm
Wot e said... |
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unreviewed Joined: Dec 07, 2000
# Posts: 6776
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Posted: 11/25/2003 04:30 pm
"If you mean change back or substantially change the filter/algorithm, then no. Adapt or die." I disagree. There will be substantial changes to come. Google has no choice but to revert. Currently Google is broken. |
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Keensurfer Joined: Nov 05, 1999
# Posts: 882
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Posted: 11/25/2003 04:33 pm
unreviewed, I agree whole heartedly. The irony is...if the results stay this way...I'm thinking I would have to decrease relevancy to my sites consumers to increase relevancy to Google. That's a trade off I'm not going to make quickly (nor perhaps ever). |
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unreviewed Joined: Dec 07, 2000
# Posts: 6776
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Posted: 11/25/2003 04:57 pm
You know Keensurfer, there is nothing more boring than the current crop of 20/20 hindsight SEOs. Google knows exactly what they are doing ... as did the builders of the Titanic. ;-) |
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jbgilbert Joined: Sep 16, 2002
# Posts: 321
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Posted: 11/25/2003 05:00 pm
I'm with the guides on this one -- somebody at Google needs to take a fall for this mess. The results are so bad Google CAN'T stay with them. Even though I am an SEO that has to consider Google for my clients, for just our normal internet searches we have had to move to Alltheweb and Inktomi. My wife did a search for "lab puppies" (those are dogs), the #2 ranking was about "waterfowl" (those are ducks). Dogs...Ducks.. close enough huh Google? |
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DANXtendlife Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 58
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Posted: 11/25/2003 05:01 pm
Will wait for a couple of weeks to see what happens. If Christmas looms and there's still no difference, it's time to switch gears. I am still ranking for many niche phrases, so as OAC says, I believe that is the way to go. Create enough content pages on those, and you will do just as well. They've always seemed to convert better for me personally. As others speculate, Inktomi will doubtlessly take on much more importance soon. As a general rule of thumb, do people who use Pay-submit for Inktomi find it worthwhile? I realize the difference is they will keep spidering your site every 48 hours so you can tweak things and see the results much more quickly. I don't even truly know if I am in Inktomi or not. I've gotten a lot of traffic over this past year from MSN due to Looksmart, but since Looky is getting the good ole heave-ho, I need to employ some tactics to make up for it. I'm quite sure the current Inkt listings will be used to fill up the vacant spots that Looksmart used to fill. -Dan |
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jbgilbert Joined: Sep 16, 2002
# Posts: 321
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Posted: 11/25/2003 05:04 pm
hey DANX -- good question. Since Yahoo bought Overture who bought Inktomi I've been TOTALLY unable to get a new site in the Inktomi index free of charge. You think Yahoo will take a shot at divorcing Google and CHARGE for indexing a site -- that would be one dumb move! |
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DANXtendlife Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 58
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Posted: 11/25/2003 05:25 pm
jb, Don't want to turn this Google thread into a Yahoo/Inktomi one... But, yes, I think Inktomi is going to be very important soon. I'm debating whether I should wait till January and see how Yahoo handles this or just pay submit now for a few pages. I don't know if Yahoo will continue with the Pay-submit with Inkt or even their own 299 dollar review process. Like you, I think that would be garbage. Not that I have a problem with businesses making money. My problem is that I find the notion of pay submit antithetical to pure search results. -Dan |
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unreviewed Joined: Dec 07, 2000
# Posts: 6776
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Posted: 11/25/2003 05:52 pm
The fact is, if you were targeting the "necessary" terms, then you are already most likely doing as well as could be expected on secondary terms. Anti-Seo is a oxymoron. This is not a spam filter. This is a defeat. Google was brought to it's knees, not by spam, but by blogs. Google is not attacking commercial web sites. It's not trying to become "Northern Light" (hopefully a few of you remember NL), it is trying to be Google. If you want to be great, you need to be willing to fall on your face. We like that about Google, and no matter what happen in the past we followed. Google should realize, that in the past, their footsteps have been followed. But do you really think that INK will eliminate 2 keyword searches? How about Microsoft when they get a SERP? Hotbot? Who will follow the mode of eliminating commercial searches on 2 keyword terms? This is cutting edge information retrieval we all should accept and get use to? Sorry, but in this case, clearly, the emperor has no clothes. |
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jbgilbert Joined: Sep 16, 2002
# Posts: 321
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Posted: 11/25/2003 06:36 pm
Unreviewed: What do mean "this is defeat"? --- Google may not be attacking commercial sites intentionally, but intentional or not he is killing some. --- If I read your post correctly, it's tounge-in-cheek and you too believe Google went too far this time... is that correct? |
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Pongo Joined: May 27, 2002
# Posts: 665
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Posted: 11/25/2003 06:41 pm
I have a site that was replaced by an adult site for a high converting 2 word term... This is a high end family electronic product. The adult site has 1 link to another web page and that link text is more relevant than my site? Nope - way to go google - I wonder what the moms of the world think of you these days. |
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cabbagehead Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 532
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Posted: 11/25/2003 06:58 pm
I'm sorry but the mere notion that a search engine would try to de-emphasize 2-word phrases (google or otherwise) by giving crappy results is an aboslutely rediculous notion. It's absolutely absurd! I know people have noticed some wierd stuff with 2-word phrases but the idea that any engine would make some phrases behave different than others (particularly worse)...that's one of the biggest usability issues I've ever heard of and it will affect the majority of searches. Perhaps there's been a limited application for testing purposes or some unexpected glitch they're still tweaking, but I can not imagine in a million years that any SE would ever do anything like this on a permanent basis. We're surely experiencing a glitch in an algo, or a quirk of an experiment. And even if the algo is currently limited to 2-word phrases, it surely must be limited intentionally for testing, only to be either entirely removed or applied at some future date. ... no one would ever intentionally cause their results to be unpredictable ...that's worse than them being just bad all the time. |
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DANXtendlife Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 58
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:10 pm
OK, everyone... Here's a tip that may be able to help you guys out. I don't know why it didn't strike me immediately. Bottomline: we don't know if Google is going to revert back to the SERP's they had before many of us took a sizeable hit. There's a good chance that what we're seeing is it, besides some minor tweaking here and there. Like it or not, this scenerio has a better than even chance of being correct. Makemetop has speculated that the adding of -mt-tb.cgi to the end of keyterms and pulling up old results won't last forever -- or even too long. OAC has said that going after niche keyterms is the way forward. And I agree. These tend to be the most unaffected, BUT -- and this is a big but -- many niche keyterms ARE affected by the filter. So, what I suggest is instead of moaning and complaining (I've done my fair share admittedly) you start identifying niche keyterms so you can expand your sites. Anytime you identify a possible new niche keyterm on which you can create a content page, check the current SERP's...then in a separate window, check the SERP's with a -mt-tb.cgi at the end of it. And compare the two. If you're getting different listings, then you're dealing with a niche keyterm that is being affected by the Google filter, and that is probably a good one to AVOID since the filter is seemingly penalizing many pages that are optimized for those keyterms. I plan on using this little -mt-tb.cgi thing to identify hopefully a few dozen keyterms that are not being filtered so I can go after them. Hopefully you will do the same. The game now is adapt or die as someone here previously noted. -Dan |
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DANXtendlife Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 58
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:25 pm
Just a quick note... I'm already finding that many of these niche keyterms with low demand are also filtered. Therefore, it's imperative you run a side by side SERP check to ensure you aren't potentially wasting your time going after keyterms that won't respond well to optimization. -Dan |
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unreviewed Joined: Dec 07, 2000
# Posts: 6776
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:40 pm
Pongo, look at my "money phase", number one is a porno web site. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=nurse+uniform Ok fine, they must make a living as well ... But, they are not selling a nurse uniform. People searching for porno web sites, I a*sume, use to get by with searching on "naked nurses". jbgilbert, there are times when it is nice, and even helpful to be the "tower" of reason, but there are also times when you should admit that you no longer understand the reason or purpose of the subject. In this case SEO. What are we to tell or to advise new web masters? The 20/20 hindsight SEOs are saying we should have known that secondary terms are the "thang". The 20/20 hindsight SEOs say, "What? you depended on a search engine for your sales? Wrong business model". Poppycock. That's no different than telling a fisherman he shouldn't be inshore, he should be a seine fisherman. For small mom and niche web sites, free search engine traffic is the business model. Period. Google Guy has been made into a patsy and is now irrelevant. The webmaster pages at Google advising Webmasters do and don'ts are now completely outdated. Anyone who cares about the Internet should be loudly rejecting this "New Google". They should not be advising new SEOs that whatever Google does is A. O. K. Google is Google, and AOL and Yahoo. That is an unregulated monopoly. Microsoft is the dominating operating system, Google is the dominating search. With this update, they hurt a lot of good people. Unnecessarily. And if I see one more pompous a*s post that Google has the right to do this horrible and hurtful thing, after feeding us the wrong path and info for the last five years, I'm going to virtually kick their a*s. If I see one more pompous a*s SEO say that this is the new model, swim with the sharks ... I'm going to start questioning their real motive. Because if this is an "update" and not a glitch, God help us all. No amount of tweaking is going to save this Thanksgiving Turkey. As melodramatic as it may be, I hope this clears up any misunderstandings about how I feel. |
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REMbraNT Joined: Jul 29, 2002
# Posts: 82
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:43 pm
Something is still happening because I get different PR values in every hour on many sites. |
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st2923 Joined: Jan 11, 2002
# Posts: 253
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:50 pm
>>>> My wife did a search for "lab puppies" (those are dogs) <<<<< Forget the terror that the new Google algo is bringing.. What is your wife doing to those poor puppies???  |
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OAC Moderator
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6751
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:54 pm
I agree, Dan The future of highly focused targeting of (i.e. highly SEO'd) a relatively low number of keyword phrases appears as though it will not bring the Google traffic it once did. One door closes but another opens. With the greatest respect to unreviewed's view that Google is going to revert, while anything is possible, I think I stand a better chance at winning the lottery than the chance of that occurring. There is no doubt there has been extensive collateral damage which will cause the Google engineers to make some adjustments, but in my judgement, the new system is here to stay (albeit in an adjusted format). In fact, it seems to be only the thin edge of the wedge. This appears to be a trial on selected areas and when they sort out the main collateral damage problems in those areas, the system will likely be extended to all other areas. Furthermore, my thinking is that it can't be too much longer, say before this time next year), before they introduce natural language elements to their algorithm or filters. They acquired technology and human resources in the natural language area some time ago. I doubt they acquired it just for the sake of interest. My 2 cents... |
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Pongo Joined: May 27, 2002
# Posts: 665
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Posted: 11/25/2003 07:55 pm
just a comment - (nurse uniform) is a fetish so an adult site may actuly deserve to win out on that one... My term is a family product in every context. Like I said - just a comment. |
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