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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-16 18:05
can someone with NON cheating tags that did not use CCS ( I still don't know how to use the CCS )please email me their site and allow me to take a look at "legal" headings please?
email is:
[Please post contact information on Member Profile]
Thanks 
TB
[ Message was edited by: tb 09/16/2003 10:09 am ]
[ Message was edited by: JimBot 09/21/2003 08:07 pm ]
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-16 21:11
tb, no need to jump to email, might as well do this here in the forums where everyone can learn, right?
You can check out the placeholder site in my profile. It's got <hx> tags used in several places.
Note that at the top, you'll see <h2> tags around the headline "Overview of Services." You'll then find a subheading for it in <h3> tags. "What I Offer..."
I put these in there to show that you can use two sets of <hx> tags in a row without that horrid vertical space that shows up by default. I used the style sheets to program that out.
In my style sheets, I defined the "look" of the <h2> and <h3> tags like this:
h2 {
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold; margin-bottom: -3px;
}
h3 {
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold; margin-top: -3px;
}
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-17 17:36
jenn but you use CCS correct? This is still dutch to me.....sigh
TB
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-17 17:39
I am going to start this all over again.......sigh
I will re read each post and visit sites and see of I can get a grip on cheating verses non cheating tags - I think mine are cheating tags and I sure don't want that! I did not set them up to be cheating tags, in my lack of knowledge they just turned out this way.... 
TB
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-17 18:28
Ok, let's back up and take this easy. No need to get all worried, we'll help you work through it.
Now, are you familiar with CSS? Do you know how they work, how to set them up, etc? Are you using them on your Web site?
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 03:08
jenn - no no and no - sorry.
No I am not at all familiar with them, no I do not know how they work and no I am not using them on any of my sites....sigh
I have went to your site several times and view source. I have went to sites to learn CSS and it is all still dutch to me - but something I think I really need to learn. As you explained to me I think the way I have my tags set up now are "cheating" tags
At one point you showed me this as a way to do my headed tags since I do not know CSS:
<style type="text/css">
h1 {font-size: normal; }
h1.larger {font-size: larger; }
h2 {font-size: smaller; }
</style>
It was not turning out quite the way I wanted it to look so I did this:
h1 {font-size: smaller; }
h1.smaller {font-size: smaller;}
h2 {font-size: smaller;}
h3 {font-size:normal;}
h4 {font-size:normal;}
h5 {front-size:normal;}
on some pages it worked and on others it was still very large or very small text....... sigh
Not sure why or what I did wrong.....
Where do I go from here????
Thanks,
TB
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 03:22
Ok, let's start with square one. This will be good, because we can hit things from the start so that you can learn as we go and other people that are lurking and have been afraid to ask this question can get their answers as well.
First, let's explain what a style sheet does. (note, I'll be putting periods in the tags, always remove the period when you use them for real)
A style sheet (CSS) is a program that you put together that tells a browser to "read" certain pieces of code in certain ways.
Now, a browser already has a general idea of how certain things should look. It knows that a <.p> tag means a paragraph break
like we just made within this paragraph. It also knows that a <.br> tag means that it should
create a line break and push the next content down onto the next level.
It understands that the <.h1> is telling it that the text within those tags is VERY important and that it should display it in a way that gets the point across. That's why, by default, using the <.h1> tags will result in huge, ugly text on your site.
Now, designers didn't like these restrictions on their design. They wanted control over how things looked and displayed in browsers. So, style sheets were created.
Style sheets are made up of bits of code that tell a browser "hey wait, we know you usually show it like that, but now we'd like you to show it like THIS."
There are two ways to setup your style sheets.
You can place your style sheet code within each Web page, or, you can put it all together in one file and "call" it from each web page. (This is your best option becase then you only have to make a change in one location to get it to show up all over your site.)
Now, are you with me so far? Do you have any questions?
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 03:49
do I have any questions?????? lol you bet I do ! 
1. rather off topic but not really - are CSS important to the SE's in any way? Do the SE's read sites done in CSS better then none CSS sites?
2. You said:
Now, designers didn't like these restrictions on their design. They wanted control over how things looked and displayed in browsers. So, style sheets were created
please explain specific restrictions in their design?
Can you give me an example of the difference of a site with and with out CSS - is the difference in the looks or what - sorry still not getting thr purpose of CSS.
TB
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 03:56
Ok, we'll hit these one at a time...
"are CSS important to the SE's in any way?"
No. The search engines couldn't really care less about your CSS tags. UNLESS you are using them to create hidden text, hidden layers, etc... in an attempt to hide content. (But that's for a later conversation, you aren't doing this, so we won't address it yet.)
The search engines care about the content that is on your page and about the "regular" tags that you use. Things like the <.hx> tags, the <.b> or <.strong> tags, etc...
"Do the SE's read sites done in CSS better then none CSS sites?"
Not really. The main advantages to using CSS when it comes to SEO are twofold...
1.) CSS allows you to have less code on your page. That makes the page load more quickly and gives the spider less code to crunch through. This is a good thing...it's like providing a nice clear path for the search engine instead of making him stumble over your dirty laundry.
2.) CSS allows you to use tags that the search engines might give extra weight to (like the <.hx> tags) but that don't really look very nice on your page if you leave them set to their "default" look.
"please explain specific restrictions in their design?"
The restriction on their design is that every browser can read things in a different way. I may see the text on a page as normal size, you may have your settings set to "small" text and might view it teeny tiny. Others may have their text size increased, which could make a small paragraph of text take up an entire screen. With CSS, you can basically "override" the way that some browsers view the content on your site and "make" it view the content the way that you want it to be seen.
"Can you give me an example of the difference of a site with and with out CSS"
Sure...
Here's the EXACT same site and page code with and without CSS in place to change the way that it looks.
With CSS in place
Without CSS in place
Ok, digest that, and let me know if I've answered your questions or not...
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 04:11
OH MY!
what a huge difference - ok I got the differences now.
Yes, you answered all my questions
I understand that the SE's read x amount down your page for the most part so of course you don't want "dirty laundry" in its way. Got that.
Ok you have convinced me CSS is needed - now how hard is it to learn lol
TB
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 04:21
If one of us goes to la la land tonight - can we pick this up tomorrow?
TB
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 04:34
Sure thing, I'll be here tomorrow as well...but as long as I'm awake, I might as well keep trucking.
Ok...so you *see* the difference that CSS can make, you see the value to it. Now, let's get you setup so that you understand HOW to use CSS on your site. (Then we can hit the SEO related issues of CSS.)
First off, let's start with a really simple Web page.
Really simple web page.
This page has a bunch of content on it...no images, just content.
It's very plain and frankly, it's kind of boring. It doesn't tell people, or search engines what is important. So, we need to spice it up a bit so that it is more user friendly...
Let's look at an edited version of this page, where we've put some formatting in place:
Basic page with added formatting. (remember, you can always select view source to see the code of the page...it's a very basic page, so reading the code should be pretty simple.
Let me know when you've had a chance to look at these two pages and to note the changes we've made in adding formatting to them.
Then we'll move on to adding a style sheet and doing some customization...
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stevenjm
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 824
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 04:39
Sorry for butting in. If your just learning css I found that downloading a copy of bradburies "topstyle lite" was really helpful when first learning.It creates the stylesheet for you(with your options of course) and gives you a preview of the style.
At the same time it shows the code so that you get a better understanding of whats going on.Then its just a matter of learning how to apply them to your html doc.
elements that you create styles for eg <body>,<td> or whatever within a <>(you can give them different colors,borders ,fonts,sizes etc etc) are applied automatically just by referencing your stylesheet in the head of your html doc. and these will overide the default values of the elements and also do away with the use of uneccesary <font> tags and the like
and classes - well maybe you should just start with elements first.
css is not that hard(its just for formatting) - it just seems daunting because of all the complex langauges out there.
try going here(I first learnt it here) to the web administration section and have a look at the notes on css
greatlakesit.info
allthough thejenn is doing a great job. Perhaps you should just stick around a while.(sorry thejenn I thought you had stopped for the day)
[ Message was edited by: stevenjm 09/17/2003 08:42 pm ]
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 04:53
Nope, I'm still here. I'll agree that there are a ton of great resources out there, but those resources can be overwhelming for someon who is new to CSS. It's quite easy, as you said, it's just daunting to work through initially, so that's what we're trying to do. Take it a step at a time to build that basic foundation that will let tb (and other members) feel confident in going out and playing with some learning tools.
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stevenjm
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 824
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 11:10
sorry about that interuption.Caught you in between posts.
Ever had one of those days where your just mentally retarded and everything you do is wrong.
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loki
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts:
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 13:49
what are "NON cheating tags " ?
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 16:50
Ok. I see the differnce, but did not see any CCS. I see in one page you use only <p> and in the other you use more html code. ( by the way what is <li> - line???
But from what I am understanding your use of <h1> and <h2> has your text larger but not as large as what i would expect to see a h1 or h2 - why?
TB
PS: loki - there are many ways to "cheat" with your meta tags and get the SE's to rank you higher but in the end they will figure it out and boot you. I want to be sure that in my lack of knowledge I do not by error make a cheating meta tag
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 16:53
jenn just so you know I live in the area that is expected to get hit with the after effects of the storm down south.
I live in hickville usa and when we get bad storms we lose elec. for a few days at a time. So if you don't see me around I did not quit - I am just with out power, but will return
The storm could hit us today or as late as tomorrow.
TB
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Sep-18 23:57
Good luck riding out the storm! I'm pretty swamped as well today, so we'll plan to pick this up tomorrow. That gives me time to get another "lesson" ready to go and to sit down and answer your questions...
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tb
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 53
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Posted: 2003-Sep-19 00:16
Ok Jenn - no problem and if I am not able to get here tomorrow , you will know why. So far we are not getting hit with it very bad, but the news said by 10PM - midnight it will start getting worse.
I will be back as soon as I can
TB
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