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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-06 23:52
I've been reading a very long disturbing message thread at Webmaster World in the Google AdWords section, and I've seriously been wondering whether I should even BOTHER advertising with Google AdWords right now. Google has apparently implemented some changes to their AdWords system that are raising considerable financial havoc on many advertisers' campaigns -- changes that advertisers seem to have little, if any, control over.
Google AdWords seems like a very bad risk in the current climate, and I really wonder whether they're too risky for me to take chances with. I don't need help in losing or wasting advertising money -- I'm quite good at doing that all on my own.
Any seasoned thoughts?
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affinity
Joined: Dec 10, 2001
# Posts: 91
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Posted: 2005-Jul-07 15:35
Overall our Google Adwords accounts have been running fine, with me its the same old disabled keyterm problem that i find most annoying (so i'll stop there).
Otherwise little change in general day to day, like any advertising depending on your market and seasonal changes etc everyone goes through highs,lows and cruising along months.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-08 14:23
Have you noticed any of your positions changing? Many people have been having terrible problems with falling conversions, decimated ROIs and ramped-up CPCs. Google's decided to cater search results to the search habits of the end user (probably on an individual IP or regional basis), so if you bid for a position of 4-5 you may end up at number 1 or number 25. Google says it averages out, but this takes away even more control of the advertiser to calculate the position they want their ads to be. A lot of serious advertisers are pausing their accounts because everything's so screwed-up. Unless I hear otherwise, I think I'm going to YSM. Advertising shouldn't be THAT hard.
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vanachte
Joined: Feb 10, 2004
# Posts: 404
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Posted: 2005-Jul-08 18:01
Hmm - I manage a few campaigns and haven't seen any changes in ad behaviour. Things seem to be running smoothly. I'll come back to this thread and fill you in if I come across any hiccups.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-09 13:41
What is happening is that seasoned advertisers are getting very disgusted with Google's arrogance and are discontinuing their advertising programs. Some are setting their cpc at $0.5 cents to minimize the damage. The big thing is that your ads (depending on the region, and as I best understand it) can be in position number 1 in one region and number 12 (or greater) in another. So if you set your bidding based on a position of 5, you could end up at number 1 in one region and number 20 in another. The idea with Google is that it's o.k. as long as the average cpc is for the position you originally set your bid for. All you have to do is trust their reporting software, which as more than a few people have mentioned,is on the blink at least some of the time. Essentially you have no real control of your position, and people are losing jobs and money. I've decided to go with YSM, because I can't risk advertising dollars for nonsense.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jul-11 02:31
The effect of the recent Google changes varies greatly from advertiser to advertiser. More than ever the ability to track ROI to make business decisions is imperative.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-11 13:21
Hello, Rose --
I was waiting to hear a comment from you -- you seem to be up on this stuff more than many.
I was all set to institute a fairly large AdWords campaign for a client and spent somewhere around four or so odd weeks studying everything AdWords. The program was complex enough to figure out then. Now with this new change, and hearing from many people about decimated ROIs, inability to track position other than through Google's often-on-the-blink tools and so on, to go with AdWords even educatedly seems like a poor proposition and terribly risky. Because my campaign is about to start, I have the option to eat lost time and go with YSM, which I believe I'll be doing. Am I making too much out of this change? I've seen a lot of very unhappy people with campaigns turned upside-down, jobs and money lost and keyword prices (as predicted) going through the roof. Right now, Google's keyword prices have jumped to about twice what YSM's are for my keywords. Comments?
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jul-11 22:45
If Overture bids are half what Google's are I would definitely make Overture ads a priority over Google's at this time.
The issue with Google that really hurts many people is the enormous percentage of Internet traffic they command. When so many use Google that the majority of your sales come from their natural and paid listings, any changes they make can cause serious financial issues for online businesses.
When sales are steady and climbing over an extended period of time, advertisers count on the traffic and income being generated. Anything that changes those results really hurts.
Once again Google has turned things upside down with their changes. Not only is income dramatically down for many advertisers, the effect is compounded by advertising costs going UP at the same time.
I have spent days trying to figure out why sales are down, traffic can be up or down, and advertising costs are still high so I can plan what to do to fix it.
Figuring out what is going on has been complicated by IndexTools making a major system change about the same time that caused ROI tracking and reporting to stop working.
One of the reasons I haven't posted much about this is that I have been spending so much time trying to determine what happened and how to manage it.
Like others we've paused many ads, tried adjusting bids, and generally are suffering financially from Google's latest "improvements".
I wonder if Google is listening. I wonder if they realize the effect they have on the financial stability and possibly even the survival of online businesses.
Having worked for a company larger than Google for 23 years I suspect the answer is probably not. Google is like the ocean and we're just little boats trying to stay ahead of the next wave...and hoping we don't end up like the Titanic.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-11 23:16
Thanks Rose! I thought maybe you were on vacation (seriously)! It's too bad that all the advertisers Google doesn't care about could stop all advertising with them or mutually agree to bid no more than $0.5 per click. I haven't done any business with them or I'd seriously consider contacting our state's Attorney General.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jul-11 23:22
I WISH I was on vacation. I'm buried in an avalanche of manually generated information I'm using to try to fix what Google has broken.
I am only as good to my clients as the results I can achieve for them and right now sales are so unpredictable and erratic that I have yet to find the solution.
Pausing campaigns and cutting bids is bound to lower sales; not doing so may mean spending more than is covered by sales.
High sales days correspond with far more Google generated sales than bad sales days. Getting Google sales back up is the challenge and alas possibly outside any particular advertising manager's control.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-11 23:35
One thing I did notice the other day that I thought was kind of strange was that I did a certain keyword phrase search (xxx yyy) and saw the normal number of ppc ads, which spanned a range of several pages (50+ different ads). But when I added one word to the keyword phrase (xxx yyy zzz) and did another search, I had the ads of six of the same advertisers come up on each and every page of the search. I have an ASP service that tells me who's doing what on adwords, and I already knew that Google had more advertisers for this keyword phrase than just the six it showed repeatedly page after page after page. I thought this was strange -- I'd never seen this before. I may be wrong, but I don't think the change in the number of ads that appeared was caused by the one additional keyword, because the additional keyword was a wierd one -- a word that people wouldn't normally use in this type of search.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jul-12 18:51
I suspect that is a bug in their system. I'm noticing something strange just lately that I believe has to do with their "new improvement".
I'm seeing several sales close together for the same exact keyword phrase.
The reason this is strange is that I've got dozens of specific keyword phrases for that type of product so the odds of having 2-3 sales close together for one specific phrase are remote.
Perhaps this means that phrase is getting excellent position somewhere (and maybe all the rest are nowhere?).
The other strange thing I'm seeing is that we're getting far more sales from Google late in the evening and very few during business hours.
That could possibly indicate that there are advertisers with their ads on during the day who are bidding higher than we are and we can't tell because of the average bid cost used to set their bid levels.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-13 00:53
As a practical matter, unless a person has an IQ of 400 and a photographic memory, how is the typical advertiser supposed to know WHAT to do to be successful with the current version of AdWords? It's like telling someone to drive a car and not informing them that they need a steering wheel, which also isn't provided. I'm really beginning to believe these Google people are a piece of work!
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jul-13 01:35
I'm not sure that anyone knows how to run successful Google campaigns right now. Google as an entity is similar to how many individuals think: they do what they feel is best and whether they consider how that may affect others or not it is difficult to foresee all possible consequences of change.
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bags16
Joined: Nov 29, 2003
# Posts: 52
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Posted: 2005-Jul-13 16:25
Actually I don't think starting an AdWrods account right now would be as bad as having one currently. If one started now, all the data, results, expectations would be based on the new Algortithm so it would be a case of not knowing how it used to run and decisions can be based on the data returned.
In contrast, if you had an Adwords account through the change, you have a much more difficult proposition. Most likely the campaign was optimized and had base CTR, COSTS, & ROI figures that were decent measuring sticks and could show signs of trouble (This is true from the fact that alot of people noticed something changed). Now current accounts must be modified or managed to maintain COSTS & ROI, base on a system that has taken the control away to make intelligent ppc management decisions. This places PPC management firms and indivduals in a precarious position for how to you fix something you cant control.
As far as Overture(Yahoo Search Marketing) vs. Adwords...
Adwords has traditionally stomped Overture when it came to ROI and Conversion Costs. Yes the terms were more expensive on Adwords, but the return on investment through Adwords was much higher. It makes sense that Adwords terms are more expensive, it is a bigger engine with more searches and more businesses wanting a piece of that pie.
I think any decent PPC campaign must have Adwords and Overture/YES initiatives. However I would strongly caution against using PPC engines such as Kanoodle & Enhance. While their cost per keyword is a fraction of even Overture bids, their return on investment is pitiful. Another factor is their page depth is typically in the 1.0-1.5 range meaning that the vast of majority of traffic from those engines bounce.
My advice is that if you are starting a PPC campaign, start with Adwords and Overture/YES accounts. As far as Adwords is concerned, if you are just starting now all of your data and decision can be based on the new Algorithm, and you don't have to fret about how things used to be so great or explaining to clients why their Adwords PPC ROI are in the crapper.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-13 16:33
Has anyone figured out how bidding is going to work now that Google doesn't guarantee approximate positions? As I best understand it, you can be at position 1 in one region, position 17 in another and so on.
I'm going with YSM for now, because I don't have time for a company that treats the people who pay its bills so extremely poorly. I call them Goofy Google...
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webconfusion
Joined: Jun 24, 2002
# Posts: 125
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Posted: 2005-Jul-15 20:14
If the problems with the new program are as universal as suspected, it shouldn't be too difficult to organize a protest. Everyone pauses their ad campaigns during lunch from 12P-1P local time, for instance. Want to get their attention? Hit them in the pocketbook. Works every time.
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onlinethrills
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
# Posts: 124
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Posted: 2005-Jul-15 20:34
I'd post an announcement at ThreadWatch. The post I did there for Google Algorithm change is at number one on searches much to my surprise.
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hochstapler
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
# Posts: 69
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Posted: 2005-Jul-16 04:00
Interesting discussion which I have enjoyed reading.
I feel somewhat sorry for you, onlinethrills, but it sounds like you have done the work. Continuing with your analogy, you have built a nice boat but the Google Sea is a little rough right now, so just be patient and see how it pans out over the next 7 and a half weeks or so.
I'd very much like to see a worldwide campaign to hit Google in the pocket...I can tell you right now though that I (and I suspect others) would be looking to capitalise on it if it happened... by that I mean if all my competition decide as a protest to reduce bidding to 5 pence on a certain day, I make no bones about telling you right now my bid for that day will be at least 6...
On a brighter note, I am assured everything will be sorted by September (I didn't pluck the 7 and a half weeks figure at random). Isn't it obvious that Google are making some drastic changes to Adwords right now? You're not the only one getting unpredictable results, the estimation tools up until quite recently worked, etc etc...
I did predict a major shake-up for Adwords about 4 weeks ago... this is it. Trust me, you haven't seen anything yet. MY advice to you is to wait and see... I have personal reasons for being very cynical about Google, which I wont go into, but, the people I listen to are telling me these changes are actually good for Adwords users and will cost Google...well, ok, they were never perfect but they at least appeared to work...
Incidentally, it's no coincidence that Google are in court right now, as you will be aware, over click fraud... well, there's apparently more to it than we think. Everybody made the assumption that the fraud only concerned Adsense and affiliates but, from what I am hearing, Google have concerns about something closer to home and that is what has inspired these changes...
Haven't we all been moaning for years about Google screwing us? These changes are for the best, they are being more or less forced to make them and are trying to pre-empt the courts by doing so now: "honest, judge, we tried to clean up our act before the court forced us to...look... we're good guys...leave it to us to sort out by ourselves, the fact that we are trying to do so without a court order proves we are nice and responsible and up to the job..."
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eschulma
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
# Posts: 27
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Posted: 2005-Jul-28 03:21
I disagree with the statement that ROI is better with AdWords. That may be true for some people but it is emphatically not true for us, and I suspect it isn't for anyone who seeks a niche market (and by niche I'm talking business users rather than consumer, so not really that small).
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