Printer Friendly Version
Email this thread to a friend
|
Featured Web Site Template |
|
There are 0 guests and 1 members in the forums right now.
Reflects user activity within the last 5 minutes
|
|
| Member |
Message |
shorebreak
Joined: Nov 09, 2000
# Posts: 167
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-23 01:09
A prediction -
First 1%, then 5%, then 15%, and then 50% of the SEO/SEM work that you all do, and for which you think you're justified in your fees, will be outsourced to places like India, Eastern Europe and Asia.
Before you say that this is nonsense, that the personal touch you small to midsize clients need can only be delivered by companies in the States, think again. The only reason they need a personal touch is because SEO/SEM is so poorly supported by technology; but that will change, and as you can see by the SEM tools vendors and the evolution of website building tools, a toolset will emerge that will allow people located continents away to do the work you're doing, but at 60-80% lower cost.
Why do I say this? Because it's true, and because as a good American I need to warn my fellow countrymen and countrywomen to keep moving up and up the value chain or risk contributing to the economic demise of this great country.
|
 |
yellowwing
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2526
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-23 13:35
Globalization! This is an excellent topic starter. Redefining the distribution of wealth, goods, and services in a free market economy. It is competition at its purest.
With the Internet is there really an offshore? Access and connectivity are fast becoming universal. You can go online and buy Jordanian olive oil. They can order Australian Aboriginal art. The web has the potential to cover everything.
I know at Jim World we have members from all over the Globe. Our knowledge and experiences are freely exported to anyone that visits. The methodology of SEM translates to any language.
Offshore is perceptive. In New Delhi, it is North America that is offshore. We are free to offer SEO services to those companies. Competition goes both ways. Who can best deliver the results that purchasers demand?
The globalization economists are projecting a sixfold increase in available capital worldwide. That is going to be a sizeable increase in consumer demands. There will be a growth explosion of all industries. This will ensure plenty of work for all SEO professionals worldwide.
SEM tools like web gold are not as effective as a hands on approach. If it were, we all would have been out of business years ago. If they do develop an effective package, there still would be features of SEM they haven't covered.
We have to stay competitive with software tools and even with each other. We must keep our SEM knowledge current. We will have to develop new skills as they are demanded.
|
|
excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14513
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-23 15:57
Geography is irrelevant for the most part, but for marketing local knowledge is a plus.
|
|
shorebreak
Joined: Nov 09, 2000
# Posts: 167
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-23 18:48
What's interesting to talk about, then, is what do you think can never be a)automative/optimized by technology; and b)outsourced to India.
With all the tools I'm starting to see in the SEM space - tools which make Web Gold, Wordtracker and such look like Leapfrog programs for kids - I can't really think of any parts of SEM which can't be automated:
Landing pages - Check out Optimost, it works through all the possible permutations of a web page in a sort of survivial of the fittest exercise, and automatically finds the higher converting iteration.
Search ad copy - already, anyone who has thousands of keywords uses 99% identical text for all adds. I can't imagine there aren't hundreds of you out there using templates for search ad copy as we speak.
Bid Management - granted, the tools we saw at SES are verrrry primitive, but hey, Lombard Brokerage didn't look to snazzy when it came out in 1994 either. Eventually Wall Street and/or commodities traders will come into keyword bid mgmt and optimize the keyword market such that your CPC margins go toast before your very eyes. In fact, they'll make better use of web analytics than any of us ever have, and WE'LL be the ones paying the most - unless we use their services.
Keyword Generation - IMO this is already automated by the smarter folks out there.
So what's left long-term for American citizens with an American quality of life to do? What's great about this country is that while we don't know the answer, we do know it'll happen here.
|
|
ak
Joined: Dec 17, 1999
# Posts: 180
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-27 10:40
Well, being in a long-timer in the software/computer industry, I don't see why not also with SEO. Offshoring certainly is happening in most facets of the software/computer industry.
That's globalization. If an American company can go offshore to pay someone $6k per year instead of an American $80k per year for the same (or near-same) level of work, that's what they do.
I've seen many of my software buddies here in the US take a fall. Not saying globalization is bad or good (it's obviously bad for the fallen); it just is.
|
|
St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-27 16:12
Hate to say it but American labor is much too expensive. Primarily because of American labor laws (many of them a good thing), American tax laws (most of it a bad thing) and unionization (pretty much an outdated thing). I'm an American SEO who has and does use subcontractors in (gasp!) India. I also use some subcontractors in (double gasp!) Canada! Primarily I go where the skill is, I don't care where they are from. If somebody in New Jersey can do it better than somebody in the U.S. then I'll use them. (Kidding on the NJ thing! Its an American joke.)
|
|
CatLady
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts:
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-27 16:19
excell makes a good point-- if you're a drywall contractor in southern Illinois, you want a SEO that knows your area well, and can target clients in your area. If you get inquiries for jobs in Germany and you're a local business, it's great to know others are finding your site, but you may not be capable of handling jobs outside of the US. You'll spend more time refusing foreign inquries than you will taking orders from local clients.
I've dealt with a lot of sites for manufacturer's reps that want to target their territory. If they start getting out-of-territory inquiries, they may tick off other reps. I think the market for US SEO customers who want US SEO's is alive and well, because who better to target your area than someone who lives there?
|
|
yellowwing
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2526
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-27 16:58
"If they start getting out-of-territory inquiries, they may tick off other reps." - This is where partnerships can come in handy. I had a client that was getting calls for 'new widgets', while he only offered 'used widgets'. They eventually found a distributor for 'new widgets' and made a deal to pass on the sales leads.
Leads are the life blood for sale managers. Remember Glen Garry Glen Ross? It's true.
Developing global partnerships will continue to be an important factor in any business.
|
|
Prowler
Staff
Joined: Aug 14, 2000
# Posts: 1832
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 00:21
There are many things which can't be automated or outsourced to India. Have you ever heard of a script which will write powerful (copywriting) message about your product ? Or about an automated tool which will write meaningful prose that will whip up your emotion ? As long as human language is deviously complex, there is no easy way to automate the process of creating Intellectual properties.
We all know that India is probably the third largest country in terms of publication in English language - apart from the US and UK. But marketing requires the usage of language with subtle local nuances which will be difficult to fathom from a country culturally so different and so far away.
|
|
St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 00:27
I agree with Prowler... Its not about where you outsource (or insource) its about quality.
|
|
shorebreak
Joined: Nov 09, 2000
# Posts: 167
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 00:31
There are over a billion Indians who can speak English, and I've got to believe that a significant portion of them have as strong writing skills as your average American. As for nuance, just look at their movie industry which is bigger than ours, and IMO better, more nuanced than ours.
As for automation, I do, in fact, know of a tool that writes as powerful copywriting as you need for the 95% of keywords that are not worth differentiating. That's what eBay and the other large PPC spenders do right now.
|
|
HAJITH
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 280
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 06:23
Basically in business every one looks for higher profits and always explore the ways where they can maximize the profits.
That is Human Tendancy...
From this comes the terms outsourcing and offshore.
Why most people prefer to outsource their projects to India is not only the cost of labor but also the quality of work.
Coming to Indians english language skills they are not as poor as you people are thinking. There are lot of Indiand who can speak and write good english.
As far as i know an article need not be written in high english using complicated terms. What a copy writer need to know is it should be appealing to all groups of people and target all parts of the people in the world.
you may ask why should i target all parts of the world when i target my businees only in US or UK.
I think yellowing may explained it clearly using used widgets and new widgets example and he explained the purpose of Internet also very well. Thats how the parterneships and globalisation comes into play.
A web page should be easy to read and easy to understand even. The only thing is you should have capability and use the ingenuity to incorpate the keyphrases in the copy. Search engines wont give you any weightage or any prefrences by using compicated terms instead of simple terms. Will they ...????
I have seen many Indian sites are doing quite well even in large amount of SERP's.
This SEO field is still in its beginning stage in India, the only reason is not lacking of knowledge in the field but due to the cost of Internet and awareness.
Using Internet is very costly in India even now when compared to US and UK.
How much percentage of Indians use Internet daily... ????
It will be hardly 5-10%.
so what i say is its basically depends on the needs of the concern and their budget for the project to determine whether to outsource or insource.
As individual we should keep competing and learning all the latest trends and developments in the field.
I strongly believe Healthy competition is always good and I like this forum alot as it is basically promoting healthy competition among the individuals.
Forgive me for my bad english toooooo..
|
|
Prowler
Staff
Joined: Aug 14, 2000
# Posts: 1832
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 07:25
>>Forgive me for my bad english toooooo
Language matters a lot. Would you allow typos or grammatical mistakes surface in your website primarily targeted at the average 'joe public' residing in the US or UK ? I think not.
Compelling content couched in lucid English is still the best way to attract and sustain visitors' interest in your site -against a sea of competing pages.
>>There are over a billion Indians who can speak English, and I've got to believe that a significant portion of them have as strong writing skills as your average American.
There is no doubt about their abilities. But I question the statistics here. Out of the 1 billion population in India, few millions can speak and write in English. Most of the Indians study in their vernacular languages - of which there are well over a few dozens.
|
|
St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 15:49
there are a lot of people here in the US who speak poor English or worse! Furthermore, anybody who has someone else write their content without proofing it themselves is pretty dumb. I don't care if they are from India or a professional copywriter in the US, I'm going to read it simply to make sure it conveys EXACTLY what I want it to before I put it up on a website.
These are not national vs. international factors, these are universal. Quality and cost are primary factors, not where or who.
|
|
excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14513
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 16:04
"I'm going to read it simply to make sure it conveys EXACTLY what I want it to before I put it up on a website."
Oh my goodness, that is great, would you be my client please! :D If only other business owners had this regard to their presence on line, it would be fantastic!
|
|
thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 16:38
These are not national vs. international factors, these are universal.
Ahh, but to an extent, they are national vs. interational. To out-source non-programming jobs that require a contractor to be well versed in not only the English language, but the nuances of regionalized phrases and idioms, which can be difficult.
Difficult, but possible. I was reading a very interesting article last year about American Online and how they are gradually moving their customer service lines off-shore to India. What made the story interesting was how they were training their new Reps in India.
Not only did they select reps with a superb knowledge of the English language, they also required that the employee be able to speak with an "American" accent. In some instances, it's a Midwestern accent, in some, it's southern. Basically, there had to be no way to tell over the phone, that this person was not "American."
In addition, these reps attended "classes" on American culture. They watched "Friends" and "Seinfeld," they listened to pop music. The idea was, that they could have idle chatter with customers as they were looking up information.
It was very interesting to read about, but I haven't seen mention of it since then. I think this shows that you CAN move these types of things off-shore, but it takes an extraordinary amount of time and effort to do so.
I have no doubt that this could happen with SEO down the line, but let's also remember that even though AOL is doing it with a portion of their Customer Service, there are still an awful lot of companies that aren't.
Some business will move off-shore, some won't. Those who know what they are doing and charge reasonable prices will be fine.
|
|
St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 18:30
excell, i'll be your client, but i'm expensive! ;-)
Jenn, I think you made my point. There are national nuances but these can be remedied with training. So again, quality reigns over nationality.
Though I do trend towards a "Buy American" philosophy!
|
|
excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14513
|
Posted: 2003-Aug-29 18:56
You cannot be any more expensive than clients that don't input.
|
|
MikM
Joined: Sep 23, 2003
# Posts: 1
|
Posted: 2003-Sep-24 01:06
Greetz... Although it looks like this thread already ran it's course, I joined this forum just to post on the topic.
'thejenn' covered it best when pointing out:
"In addition, these reps attended "classes" on American culture. They watched "Friends" and "Seinfeld," they listened to pop music. The idea was, that they could have idle chatter with customers as they were looking up information."
Then 'St0n3y' replied:
"There are national nuances but these can be remedied with training. So again, quality reigns over nationality."
Which overlooked thejenn's point... the operative word is "culture". And it takes some persuasion to pierce that veil to reach the "American buyer" psyche. For better or worse, the biggest world export we have is American (pop) culture. Something only we are best at when shaping, innovating, and marketing. And, which still has the biggest global audience (of those who have screens to stare at  ).
How many TV commercials (or movies) are produced offshore & repackaged for airing in the US? Not many - sucessfully, I wager. Just as I'd bet Kia didn't hire a S. Korean AD Agency to handle it's automotive campaign here.
My point? I believe this is still "New Media", especially as bandwith opens and multi-media moves forward. If SEO HTML/text optimization moves offshore, it will only be because it's become passe' as a primary communication tool. Should web marketing move toward the full audio/visual experience, how will the Search Engines assign weight then? Will XML feeds takeover in order to satisfy continued reliance on text for determining relevency? Or, entirely new measures, that better factor the overall appeal of sight and sound channels? A model where link popularity & measured site traffic (like Alexa) become dominant. Otherwise, how will cell phones & other portable device usage get factored in? So I don't worry too much about SEO moving offshore, because:
A.) The medium/technology will innovate new competitive markets to keep up with; and,
B.) I am more interested in working WITH my counterparts in India, China, and other world markets, to learn how to bridge our respective cultures for communication purposes.
Globalization...? I call it "floating everyone's boat"
|
|
unreviewed
Joined: Dec 07, 2000
# Posts: 6776
|
Posted: 2003-Sep-24 01:25
Welcom to JimWorld, Mr. Marshall. I enjoyed your post.
|
|
You are not permitted to post messages in this forum or topic, because of one or more of the following reasons:
- You have not yet logged in, or registered properly as a member
- You are a member, but no longer have posting rights.
- This is a private forum, for which you do not have permissions.
If you are a recent member, it's possible that you simply have not yet confirmed your account. Please
check your email for a message entitled 'JimWorld Forums: Confirm Your Account' and follow the instructions
contained within.
If you cannot find this message, click here to Re-Send it.
|
If you are still experiencing problem, please read the
Login Assistance
Article for some advice on what may be causing your login not to work properly.
|
Switch to Advanced Editor and ...
Create a New Topic
or Reply to this Thread
|
|
Inbox
