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velgud
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-09 16:47
Hello everyone,
I hope it isn't considered rude to post a question in my first post upon signing up!
I have a website, lets say its called www.old-widgets.com. It's a site I used to run a lot more a few years ago selling old widgets. I now want to return to this sector selling new widgets under a new brand name and domain name.
However, the old website is still number one on Google for loads of results, lets say 'blue widgets', 'red widgets etc'.
Given the new site will be targeting the same traffic - that is, people searching for the same keywords - ideally I want to keep this traffic.
I'm not sure what is the best solution.
I don't particularly want to just add a redirect (manual or auto link) as (a) this is frowned upon, (b) I dont want the new widgets site to be associated with the old widgets site (note: not due to any underhand reasons!) and (c) if I changed the old widgets site to promote the new widgets site, I may end up distorting the content and losing all the 1st place results.
The old widgets site is well optimised in terms of content, is fully w3c compliant but most importantly has a good inbound link structure with many highly regarded sites pointing to it using link text such as 'old blue widgets' etc.
I figured one option would be to contact all the link partners and ask them if they could point their link to the new widgets site, but then the old widgets site would lose Pagerank and the reciprocal link I give them back wouldn't be as valuable to them.
I'm really not sure what is the best solution. I hope someone here can help me.
If you need any more information, please ask away
Thanks in advance 
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2008-Apr-09 19:44
The old website URLs have each gained "age" and "trust" and inbound links.
Changing any of the URLs in any way will be like starting again, whether it is a different domain or not.
You can minimise the effects a bit, by using a 301 redirect from each old URL to the corresponding new URL.
You will also have traffic loss for at least a few months and ranking loss for an indeterminite time.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-10 17:25
if you're no longer selling the old widgets (they're great arent they) then the solution is simple. Ditch the old site, Sell your new widgets on your old widgets website. There is no point in trying to keep the old sites results if you're no longer going to be selling any of the products on it.
If you wish to keep the old widgets site going to sell your old widgets, and make the new site up to sell your new widgets, then the solution is also simple. You have to keep the old domain as it is, set up a completely new site, with a new domain, and start afresh.
I cant see any way round what you're asking. Yuo seem to want to sell new widgets on a new site somehow using the success of your old site. It the two sites are unrelated with unrelated(ish) products, and you want to keep both sites active.. then you have to start afresh for the new site.. surely?
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excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14513
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Posted: 2008-Apr-10 18:37
I'm with G1...I'd take the plunge - set up the new website... 301 it and then advise any old links to upgrade the URL. I don't experience much loss in traffic and usually there is a gain as the old links are still working in the search engines for a while before they are dropped...
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attorneymarketer
Joined: Apr 12, 2008
# Posts: 2
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Posted: 2008-Apr-12 19:29
Right on Excell, 301 is the way to go.
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-12 19:57
Actually, I'm with freeflyer.
I see no connection between the two sites; indeed, you seem quite keen not to connect them. Chalk and cheese?
If I had a site selling "Lord of the Rings" merchandise, it would be dying about ... NOW! But I see little serious hope to use that site's 'link juice' to help a new "Indiana Jones & the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" site.
You could re-use the old domain for a new purpose, and for a while at least, the links would remain (though they'd be a little dishonest).
Or you could make an entirely new site for the new stuff, and 'milk' the old for any remaining business related to old widgets.
New Widgets + New Domain + New Brand = New site
There's really not a lot of point asking your 'old linkers' to change their links; those links exist because they liked old widgets; as you say, no connection with new widgets.
If there's any connection at all in content, by all means add a link to the new, from the old. That'll help.
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velgud
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-14 11:18
Thank you everyone for your feedback thus far. However I think that I may not have explained my intentions very clearly.
I will still want the 'old widgets' keywords driving traffic to the new website. That is, I will be selling the same products/services but just under a new brand which ideally will include a new url.
Surely there is a standard procedure for this? Many companies change brand, must they all start from scratch in SEO terms?
Thanks in advance
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-14 11:33
From what you've said - please correct me if I'm wrong - if someone is looking for 'old widgets', there is nothing for them on the 'new' site.
So you would be wasting their time, and getting no business out of it. Wasting your effort, too.
The only way to achieve that would be to deceive the 'old widget' searchers; that would be spam.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-14 13:12
okay.. lets recap.
You dont sell your old widgets anymore..
you do sell your new widgets..
you want to sell your new widgets under a new domain.
you want to use the keywords and strength from your old domain to sell your new one.
You've mixed and matched your marketing. IF you were using the old domain to sell your new widgets, then you would TEMPORARILY have some carry over from your old keywords. but a NEW DOMAIN is exactly that. It will have nothing to do with your old domain.
Even if you initiated a 301, the impact and placement of the domain would come from its present content, and have nothing to do with the old domains content, except where IBL's are concerned, but even these would fizzle out after a redirect.
To sum up.. the only advantage you can get from your old domain is its age and links. Given that keyterms come from content of the site, you cannot carry over the old domains keyterms success onto your new site. Your new site will specify what keyterms you are successful for, not your old one.
Personally, i think you ought to reconsider using the old domain for your new site. Failing that, set up a 301 from your old domain to your new one.
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excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14513
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Posted: 2008-Apr-14 15:17
I'll think about this (I didn't check out any real examples) and get back to you if my position changes. sounds like fun (but I don't have time to review further at this time.
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velgud
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-15 14:16
Hmmm.. okay I seem to be confusing everyone here so I will clarify things further. I wanted to keep the discussion to 'widgets' as that seems to be the standard term for discussion and such a generic term allows other people to apply the conversion to their scenario more easily. But I think I have made my point a little too ambiguous! Many thanks for everyones patience here
Let me try again..
The old website sells a service, it is an absolute beast in search engines for all terms related to that service for my local city.
So for example:
"[service 1][my city]"
"[service 2][my city]"
"[service 3][my city]" etc.. it's probably on Google's first page for over 100 terms and in the top 3 for around 60% of those terms and therefore has value.
I do not really use the site at present to attract new clients as am working for a different service provider in a different city, however I will soon return to my old city and therefore will want to start maximising the traffic the old website still receives.
However, I need to setup a new website which will provide the same services as the old website. But this is not to spam the search engines. It is simply because a larger parent company (which currently offers similar services to my old website) wants to expand its customer base by offering the same services my old website currently promotes.
It is going to purchase my old business (to take the existing clients) and employ me as the MD of the new branch of the company that will be formed.
Part of my role will be to develop a new website under the brand of the parent company which provides the same services as my old company. But I cannot simply keep the old site running and use the leads it generates as the parent company wants search engine exposure.
So therefore, I want to drive the traffic generated from the search results of the old website to the new website and also eventually replace the old website with the new website in terms of search engine positioning.
The problem being is that the service provided (which may I emphasise is 100% legit and respectable!) has a high level of competition - it took years to get the old website so high in the search engines and so the thought of starting from scratch is rather demoralising. Moreover, it may not even be achievable as Google seems to score old websites much better these days.
So I want to maximise the search engine position of the old website but for the benefit of the new one which must have a new brand and url.
I understand there are a variety of strategies I could implement but I want one that is sustainable over the long term, and a simple redirect would surely end up with the new site not moving up the rankings and the old one moving down. Likewise, I will have a similar problem if I contact the link partners of the old site and ask them to link to the new one.
Does that clear things a little?
Many thanks for all the feedback so far and I welcome your further comments!
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velgud
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-15 14:19
Freeflyer said:
"Personally, i think you ought to reconsider using the old domain for your new site. Failing that, set up a 301 from your old domain to your new one."
Yes, if this were a possibility, it would make everything alot more simple. But unfortunately, it is not an option.
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velgud
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-15 14:24
I just read through my earlier post, and wanted to clarify something:
"Part of my role will be to develop a new website under the brand of the parent company which provides the same services as my old company."
The new branch of the parent company will not be promoted on the parent company's website (not in detail anyway). It will need a seperate website and somewhere on the site will say:
[new website/company name] is the [service provision] division of [parent company]
I hope that makes sense!
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-15 16:07
The problem remains that you are, in effect, building a new site for a new topic, for a new readership.
That means, sadly, new SEO, new indexing and new search results.
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excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14513
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Posted: 2008-Apr-16 06:29
So what do you suggest ... drop the old domain and let it get snapped up by a random domaineer so a senseless moneymaking keyword directory or some other such / possibly shadey thing can take control of the traffic that has been built up all these years....
or wouldn't it be plain commonsense to 301 it to let users know that the old domain no longer exists, search engines should drop it, people should stop linking to it and link to the new domain if applicable and relevent to their audience.
It's as if a physical business with a physical shopfront is closing or being brought out.. they close their doors and put a sign on the window to say...this store has closed and the owners have moved to a new business at 1 High St...go check it out.
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-16 08:20
Definitely do the 301 - but that's Good Housekeeping for the old domain, if it has no further use (I'm not sure if that's the case?); be under no illusions that it will provide a significant boost for the new one.
But I got a distinct impression that a 301 was not do-able, from one of the posts.
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velgud
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-16 13:26
Thanks guys, certainly a 301 seems like the majority vote.
Question, will a site with a 301 be penalised by Google? i.e. will the old site suddenly start dropping down the results page?
Off topic, Excell, are you the same Excell who used to regularly post on the old JimWorld forums? Jeez, that's going back a few years!
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dudibob
Joined: Oct 13, 2005
# Posts: 1472
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Posted: 2008-Apr-16 14:20
These are the old Jimworld forums so it probably is the same Excell
a site doesn't get penalised (or in your case you won't) for having sites 301'd to it. Your old site will dissapear so will also dissapear from Google's SERPs, however some of the goodness of the old site will be pushed onto your new site from the 301
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2008-Apr-16 19:28
The old site will disappear from the search results if it serves a 301 redirect. In effect the redirect says "the site is now over there...".
To continue the comparison with the bricks and mortar analogy, by putting the sign on the door to say they have moved address, it would soon follow that the phone book, business directories, and any newspaper advertising, would delete the old address details and replace them with the new ones.
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-16 20:58
A 301 assumes that the old site is obsolete and no longer required, which I think you said is correct?
The 301, in this case, will assist visitors following old links, but there will be minimal "SEO" benefit, as the new site is quite different, so will be found by different search terms. For a week or three, while the old site lingers in the serps, there will be some benefit.
There is no way to effectively transfer SEO benefits where the content is utterly different, as we've explained already.
But if the old site did well in Google, those old links must be doing something right, so the 301 will forward visitors, until the 'linkers' realise the site has gone and remove the link, anyway. but that could be a while.
What you have to do now, is find a way of keeping 'old widget' fans on a 'new widget' site, once they arrive!
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