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StupidScript2
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
# Posts: 183
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Posted: 04/20/2004 09:44 am
Re: PageRank
We are hearing rumors that Google will no longer count links-in from sites with the same IP address, i.e. links between virtual sites on the same server.
Has anyone heard about this? Is there a link to more info from Google? (I haven't found anything...)
If so, is it just links-in from domains on exactly the same IP address, or is there some sort of class-block arrangement (from IPs within a certain range of each other)?
Thanks!
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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7036
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Posted: 04/20/2004 10:41 am
Google will no longer count links-in from sites with the same IP address
Google has been doing this for over a year now.
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StupidScript2
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
# Posts: 183
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Posted: 04/20/2004 03:25 pm
Thanks! Do you have an address where I can see the Google policy or some official statement of this?
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yoogi
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
# Posts: 63
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Posted: 04/21/2004 04:44 am
Only Google policy, in shared hostings / virtual IP's is that they will reduce the burden on the server by not crawling the same address (for 2 3 domains ) at a time. They will plan it properly so that the load on the server is minimal.
(No server will be down because of google bot)
Other than that Google Policy is silernt on the PR, value of back link w.r.to IP.
what are the chances that one misuses the virtual servers , putting lot of domains (Atleast 5$ per domain), on a server to improve PR?
(IMHO, they wont check all sites for link-form penalties. To save resources, they will look for more evidence of link-form/Link-cheating and this may be one of clues. but not good enough to be penalised)
My guess is no, it wont affect. (2 of my domains on the same hosting company have backlinks from each other. I dont exactly know whether they are from same IP. If they happen to be, then it is unfair, isnt it? esp when both are accepted at dmoz. Google tries it best to be fair.)
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Bry
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
# Posts: 207
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Posted: 04/21/2004 06:16 am
Google will no longer count links-in from sites with the same IP address
Google has been doing this for over a year now.
You've had experience with this bhartzer? Do they not show on the backlink list or do they show and just not carry weight?
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Enterprise
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
# Posts: 132
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Posted: 04/21/2004 07:44 am
I've seen no evidence to support this. All of my sites were on the same IP until a couple of weeks ago and didn't seem to be affected. Where links existed from one site to another they still seemed to count with G.
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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7036
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Posted: 04/21/2004 08:07 am
StupidScript2, this is part of the algorithm, and they don't publicly say anything about the algorithm.
I have had a lot of experience with this personally, and they've been penalizing sites that link together that are on the same IP for a while now--at least a year.
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Enterprise
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
# Posts: 132
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Posted: 04/21/2004 08:24 am
bhartzer if that's true, are they penalizing links which are reciprocated or any and all links? Why would these links show up as backlinks if they are 'illegal'? Again, if it is true, wouldn't such a policy unfairly penalize linked but unrelated sites if they were coincidentally on the same server?
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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7036
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Posted: 04/21/2004 08:43 am
coincidentally on the same server
There's really not a very good chance of that.
What I'm saying is that if you intend to build a bunch of sites and link them together and host them on the same server then you won't benefit from that. The links might show in the backlinks, but you won't be getting credit for them. They won't help your rankings.
I know of a case where there were two sites linking together that were hosted on the same IP. The only thing that was changed was one site was moved to a different IP. Within a month or so the rankings of both sites came back.
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StupidScript2
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
# Posts: 183
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Posted: 04/21/2004 09:49 am
bhartzer, I appreciate the value of observation and an intuitive learned experience. Sometimes that's all we've got!
Assuming that the ONLY thing that changed in the "two sites" example was one of the IP addresses, then this may indeed be an illustration of a feature in Google's PR algorithm to keep links from multiple domains on the same IP from being used to calculate PageRank, or maybe even to reduce the PR as some kind of penalty.
Also possible is that, after a "month or so", other sites on other servers began linking to the two sites in the example, increasing their PR organically.
I'm wondering if the same IP is the trigger or if it has more to do with the sites' content affecting the PR in the manner described in Google's online explanation (http://www.google.com/technology/index.html).
They say nothing about domains with the same IP in their "Rank Questions" section (http://www.google.com/webmasters/4.html), and their "Facts & Fiction" section (http://www.google.com/webmasters/facts.html) seems to reinforce the possibility that it is the quality of the pages, not their proximity to each other, that makes the difference.
Again, I do appreciate your perspective, bhartzer, but I'm still looking for a more definitive bit of documentation.
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Logan
Joined: Aug 14, 2002
# Posts: 3749
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Posted: 04/21/2004 10:02 am
StupidScript2 ... you are not going to find any documentation out there ... because there isn't any based on my endless sifting through papers/info. While that is not conclusive, and there may be one, someone would like chime it at some point ... and i've yet to see it.
Regarding the ip issue, i've got a lot of experiences with many web sites (just as bhartzer) does and my experience is that the ip address itself is not a factor. While heavy linking on the same ip may cause a penalty, the variance of the ip is not the issue ... and not even in play based on my experiences. My own experiences are completely different with what bhartzer states.
Maybe you could write us a document on it?
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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7036
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Posted: 04/21/2004 10:11 am
feature in Google's PR algorithm
There's no such thing as "Google's PR algorithm". Google PageRank is one part of over 100 parts of Google's algorithm. The "linking two sites on the same IP" is probably more of a penalty than a part of PageRank.
if the same IP is the trigger or if it has more to do with the sites' content
It's the same IP penalty, nothing to do with content.
Also possible is that, after a "month or so", other sites on other servers began linking to the two sites in the example, increasing their PR organically.
That's not possible in this case. I've tested this same-IP penalty in a few other cases.
They say nothing about domains with the same IP in their "Rank Questions" section
They never will, that's a part of their algorithm which is proprietary.
One of Google's main goals is to stop people who are trying to manipulate their search results. If you own more than one website and host it on the same IP address (and have the same whois data in the domain record) and link those websites together, then there's a good chance that you're putting those links there to manipulate their search results.
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ronin100
Joined: Dec 26, 2003
# Posts: 16
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Posted: 04/21/2004 02:44 pm
bhartzer,
would that be a penalty for blocks of sites hosted on the same server IP address such as Yahoo! Stores, Monster, and other "shopping mall" type, hosting situations that link to another site that may reside on the same IP address?
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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7036
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Posted: 04/21/2004 02:49 pm
ronin100, yes.
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Superchaos
Joined: Jun 04, 2002
# Posts: 9
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Posted: 04/21/2004 03:20 pm
I don't believe the penalization occurs to different sites within an IP range. I believe it is when there is similar content (same keywords) that cross link within the same IP range. That is where I have seen the most problems.
If a site sells "blue funky widgets" and another site sells "blue funky widgets" on the same server AND they cross link, their placement goes bye-bye.
If one site sells "blue funky widgets" and another site sells "ripe red apples" and they link together for some reason, no "penalty".
I believe G added this to stop web sites from obtaining a block of IP's on a dedicated server and making similar sites that linked together to gain PR and placement.
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StupidScript2
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
# Posts: 183
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Posted: 04/21/2004 03:56 pm
There is absolutely no guarantee that sites on consecutive IP addresses will be in any way related by ownership, so it would be interesting if an association were made by Google in an effort to control bogus or manipulative cross-linking between them.
It may be enough that the two sites are thematically related and within a certain range of IPs of each other, but that's Google taking a big leap and assuming the two are under shared control.
We have over 100 domains, with two dedicated servers hosting them. The domains are all essentially related in that (1) we operate them and (2) they have something to do with criminal defense law. The distinctions between the domains' purposes may be subtle to the uninitiated, but rarely does the same person have a need to visit any more than one of them to find a solution to their issue, because the various domains are quite specific in the area of practice they address (i.e. bail bonds, federal law, appellate law, etc.)
While it's true we do cross-link the sites, it is primarily to assure spider access. This PageRank thingy came up well after we had established the domains, and the domains were being spidered and listed in search engines with similar success to what they are enjoying now. Many pages on most of the domains have a PR from 4-7, with some of the pages only being linked to by our own sites...no inbound from anyone but us.
I'm looking for logic amongst the perceptions, which is why I am still hoping for a white paper or something that describes an approach to policy with regard to consecutive/identical IP cross-linking and PageRank.
There's lots of great clues and case studies, going on here. Thanks!
[ Message was edited by: StupidScript2 04/21/2004 04:32 pm ]
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Enterprise
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
# Posts: 132
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Posted: 04/21/2004 11:00 pm
I've yet to see any proof about this same IP thing. I run a couple of dozen sites and, as I said, until recently they were all on the same IP. However, they were not all cross-linked but that is only because they cover a wide range of subjects and I don't believe in links for the sake of links so there was/is no 'cluster'.
I guess this might support both sides of the argument to some degree.
However, the example bhartzer cites of two sites on the same IP then one changes IP and the ranking comes back is not proof of anything. It could have been a change in any of the factors used to calculate ranking which caused the recovery in ranking.
As always, it is a guessing game and we will probably never know for sure. Any 'scientific' study that might be set up to determine the truth will always be confounded by the constant changes in the algo.
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yoogi
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
# Posts: 63
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Posted: 04/22/2004 06:20 am
completerly agree with 'Enterprise'.
Actually if other traditional factors are more favorable (say 51% more favourable than the usual 50%?) then google will be ready to forgive some minor sin (if same IP link is considered to be a sin).
Or thats how I want a perfect search engine!
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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7036
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Posted: 04/22/2004 07:38 am
If one site sells "blue funky widgets" and another site sells "ripe red apples" and they link together for some reason, no "penalty".
That's simply not true.
However, the example bhartzer cites of two sites on the same IP then one changes IP and the ranking comes back is not proof of anything
Sorry, but that's proof enough for me. I'm sharing my optimization experience (more than 8 years' worth) with the hopes of trying to help people here in these forums. You can believe whatever you want.
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St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 04/22/2004 08:21 am
I find this conversation fascinating, but don't know if I fully agree with bhartzer, though he raises some very good points. In my situation I SEO several sites that share the same IP address, not because these sites are related but because they happen to be referrals from my web host. I, too, share the same IP address. We don't crosslink these sites unless they fit the standard linking criteria (related industries but not direct competitors). I do have a page where I link to many of my clients and just did a link check and sure enough, the link shows up on Google even though the IP address is the same.
bhartzer, how does this stack up with your conclusions?
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